After I read this I kept asking myself what is my comfort level around “first mom” and “birth mom” or “Mommy (insert her name here)” and is it about my comfort level? No. So, then how to frame it for our children in a way that does celebrate and create normalcy for them at the same time. Meaning, making it seem totally normal and filled with love that they have two mothers or fathers etc. Great post. Love the thoughts that I am working on here.

I think that it is an overgeneralization to imply that the existence of birth parents are so easily erased and that adoptive parents are not doing things to keep the birth parents in the lives of adoptees. The other aspect of what was written in “they already have a daddy” is that parents, mommy, and daddy are titles to be earned through the action of parenting, caring for, loving, and nurturing a child. In some cases, children have multiple people in their lives that can be considered parents, mommies, and daddies. However, the simple act of conceiving and birthing a child does not entitle one to parental status, mommy status, or daddy status. The “first mom” title is even more offensive. It only applies to a very select group of children who were parented for some time by their biological mother and then put up for adoption. I am an adoptive parent and I very much value and include the birthparents in my child’s life, but let’s not kid ourselves, neither of them ever parented my child.

Let’s say that an uncle was parenting a niece whose parents had died in a car crash when she was just a few days old; meaning that the parents never got to “parent” their child. First of all, do you think that that uncle would EVER refer to his niece’s parents as “your birth mother and birth father”?

Absolutely not. Nor would he refer to them as “your first mother and first father”. Nor would he say that he can’t refer to them as parents because they never actually “parented.” And he would have no problem referring to them as “your mommy and daddy” to his young niece.

So why do we adoptees have to use any of these terms? And why must we have our own feelings and experiences dictated to us by others? I am tired of these debates about what terms I should be using. I have two mothers and I have two fathers. Can we move on already?

I think that ultimately it is the adoptee who should get to decide how they feel comfortable referring to everyone. Unfortunately, what adoptees feel comfortable doing is very much structured by the attitude of their adoptive parents. It’s very much structured by what society says they should do, and more specifically, whom society says they should feel grateful to.

If the uncle in the example I gave above doesn’t feel a need to refer to his niece’s parents as “birth parents” or “biological parents” or “first parents,” can someone explain to me why these terms need to come into play in adoption?

“I think that it is an overgeneralization to imply that the existence of birth parents are so easily erased and that adoptive parents are not doing things to keep the birth parents in the lives of adoptees.”

No, but the -idea- of birth parents spiritually existing in the adoptive household is erased from mind when it is convenient for the adoptive parents because the -physical- presence of birth parents is not there.

Mei Ling, you have no evidence that “the idea of birth parents spiritually existing in the adoptive household is erased from mind when it is convenient for the adoptive parents” . . . This is either your experience or something you just think happens. There is no data to support this belief. My only questions to Tara who started this blog and some of the others who contributed to this blog, “Why are you so angry with adoptive parents?” Kind of makes me wonder if Adoption Mosaic is really “Adoptee Mosaic” because none of this blog nor the other blogs represent adoption or adoptive parents in a positive light.

Hello “M”, thank you for once again joining the discussion. I’m certain that yours is a perspective that is shared by others within our very diverse “adoption constellation” and I’m glad you have voiced it. I do, however, disagree with your opinion that none of this blog (not sure what you mean about “the other blogs”) represents adoption or adoptive parents in a positive light.

We are aware that because the blog is authored by adoptees, it does reflect a more adoptee-centered focus since, after all, people tend to write what they know. This is one reason why we actively solicit Guest Bloggers from other parts of the constellation http://blog.adoptionmosaic.org/?p=341. I encourage you to contribute something you feel is more representative of adoptive parents (blog@adoptionmosaicdotorg).

As for your “Angry Adoptee” question, it has been my experience that this question and its derivatives are almost always used as an attempt to silence and negate the experience of adoptees. It is for this reason that I decline to join you in this particular discussion.

“This is either your experience or something you just think happens.”

It’s not about whether or not adoptive parents think about birthparents at all. It’s *when* they think about birthparents. I have no doubt that Adoptive Parent A discusses her child’s birthmother and the circumstances. But because the birthmother is not physically in the picture and in some country halfway across the globe, it is easier to regulate when to think (or not to think) about her in regards to her child’s circumstance – as opposed to say, if the birthmother lived in the same country and had an open adoption or whathaveyou.

“the idea of birth parents spiritually existing in the adoptive household is erased from mind when it is convenient for the adoptive parents”

Perhaps I should have said: The idea of birth parent spiritually existing in their adopted children’s lives while being raised in an adoptive household CAN be erased from mind when it is convenient for the adoptive household.”

Hmm, maybe I’m not getting my point across in the manner of intention… maybe this post will explain it better – written by an adoptive parent of Korean children:

http://thirdmom.blogspot.com/2009/09/something-i-wish-id-understood-about.html

“I accept and respect and welcome the presence of my children’s parents in their lives and ours; I wish we had been able to open our adoptions, in spite of the challenges I know that would have brought. But the fact that these men and women have only existed in our imaginations has led to a powerful alternate reality that we’ve been able to control at will. Out of sight, out of mind, out of reality, whenever we want.”

No, this adoptive parent is not representative of all adoptive parents. Nor does she speak for the thoughts of all adoptive parents.

But there is a sort of truth – about the convenience of being able to think about a child’s birthparents, and then *not* having to think about them – when the time is convenient.

This blog entry starts with a hypothetical question between people who are considering adoption – but (correct me if I am wrong) are *not* adoptive parents at the time the conversation happened.

From this conversation between people who have *not* adopted, a conclusion about the adoptive family is made:

“Put so simply, it makes you realize how easily and how often birth/first parents are completely erased from the lives of the adoptive family, as if they don’t exist.”

If this couple adopts, they may do research, take classes and possibly come to a different level of awareness about birth parents. Sharing this conversation with Tara, could be her friend’s attempt to learn how to honor and incorporate birth parents into the life of her hypothetical not yet adopted child.

M, I am sad to read that your reaction to the dialogue on this blog post is to accuse Adoption Mosaic of having an agenda to keep a positive light off of adoptive parents. As an active participant in the Adoption Mosaic family, I see great efforts made by Mosaic to bring together and honor all members of the adoption constellation. If you take some time to review our board of directors and newsletter or attend a workshop, you will find a very strong and respected adoptive parent voice. One of the best and unique things about Mosaic is that it is a group that is truly, truly all inclusive and it honors all people touched by adoption. Adoption Mosaic does challenge parents — in hopes to improve their families. That’s why it’s so great!

In my personal opinion, there are plenty of spaces online and otherwise, that freely shine positive lights on adoptive parents while putting the rest of the adoption constellation in the shadows. Just know that this blog wants light to shine everywhere, exposing hidden shadows in all corners.

Just to give props to Tara, she runs a thoughtful blog and puts her own experiences and thoughts out into the blogosphere in the hopes of creating a space for dialogue and learning and I am sorry to see her voluntary work disrespected by pointed assumptions.

Mosaic wants to engage with parents like you, M, so please take up Tara’s offer and write a guest blog post, so we can better understand where your comments are coming from. Honestly, they read a bit hostile. Perhaps for your post you can answer my only question to you, “Why are you so angry with adoptees?”.

Looking forward to respectful dialogue and mutual learning.

Steph & M, I’m wondering if you can reread the part of the post that recounts the actual conversation and acknowledge the following:

1) “B” actually CHANGES his response when it’s put in terms of him adopting his niece, as opposed to a child that’s not biologically related

2) The reason that “B” changes his response when it comes to adopting his niece is because the father is actually a part of B’s OWN family.

So without going further at all, can you acknowledge that those two things have happened in the conversation?

Obviously touched a nerve in challenging the thinking and perspective of others. Wondering why people are asked to comment and contribute to this blog if there is no room for disagreement; and that different perspectives, challenging questions, and equally provacative rebutals are couched as “hostile, an attempt to silence others, and/or negating others’ experiences.” This exchange obviously hit a nerve with Shelise based on her “no, you are” comment. I would have more respect for you if you would just be honest with yourself and others and acknowledge your frustration, your anger, your whatever. You have a right to have those feelings and there is nothing wrong with those feelings.

One thing that surprises me about this blog is that it was written to provoke, which it did, and then people are offended by a different perspective. Please learn to take responsibility for your written and spoken word in a public forum, otherwise keep them private. Also, please learn to accept that your written and spoken words will illicit a variety of persepctives in others which are different from yours which does not mean they are trying to silence you or negate your experiences or be hostile to you.

M, you stepped outside the realm of responding to posts and attacked this blog, the blog writer, and Adoption Mosaic, and when you got a response that defends all three, you say there’s no room for disagreement. How does someone defending what and whom you’ve attacked give you the idea that there’s no room for disagreement? No one is taking down your responses, M. Think about it.

M, I think it says a lot that you’re not responding to certain points/ideas at all. You completely ignored Mei-Ling’s response when it quoted an adoptive parent who agrees with the point she was making. You completely ignored my questions. You’re picking and choosing what you decide to engage with. This is a form of not listening and silencing. If you’re really interested in listening, how about you go back and respond to Mei-Ling’s reply to you where she quotes an adoptive parent? How about you acknowledge what has actually occurred in the conversation that Tara quoted?

M, you’re right in saying that anger and frustration aren’t bad. But adult adoptees are often assigned a label of “angry” so that their points don’t have to be acknowledged. I’m not going to label you as an “Angry Adoptive Parent” but I will say that right now you do seem to be experiencing some anger and frustration, and are choosing to use that energy by not acknowledging certain ideas.

Steph- Yes, you are correct in thinking that the conversation happened between a couple who has not yet adopted, but who was/is considering the possibility. Thank you for joining the conversation!

Shelise- Thanks for the props. I cant tell you how motivating it is to hear that people appreciate and realize the intention of the blog!

M – There’s tons of room for disagreement and we welcome it. My favorite posts on the blog are the ones, like this one, that generate a lot of different opinions. (“would adoption exist in a perfect world” http://blog.adoptionmosaic.org/?p=46 was also a great one).

It is through discussions like this one that we learn from each other, (or at the very least, learn more about one another.) It’s all valuable, even if sometimes hard to hear. My offer to you remains.

To respond to Livia’s question to me.

Yes, I see that B does change his response.

My guess is that this is not the last discussion that A & B will have on this topic. In learning about anything (racism/ LGBTQI / women’s issues, adoption etc.) we all have a starting point. Hopefully we find safe spaces, places and people to help us grow in our awareness and understanding.

When I read a quote about “how easily and how often birth/first parents are completely erased from the lives of the adoptive family” it does not ring true to the adoptive families that I am acquainted with.

Efforts among the people in my group to keep our children connected include:
*internet searches for parents and family members
*introduction and contact with family members
*with child, creating a folder full of letters and pictures for mom – in the hopes that mom will be found one day and given the folder
* finding mom and flying with child oversees to visit with mom – twice
* sending child to special language immersion programs so child will be able to communicate with birth family in native tongue.
* working with therapists to figure out how to best protect child when contact efforts are rejected by birth family.
* displaying photos of birth family
* creating a life book
* sending letters to birth family to let them know their child is loved, safe and well cared for.
* going to workshops & talking to therapist about what is in the best interest of the child
* talking to our children and specifically asking them about how to best include and incorporate both families.

Like many parents, I make mistakes and have a lot to learn. It is more helpful to me to hear specifics about what an adoptive family might do to value and honor the birth family – or specific things to avoid doing.

Steph, this is a great list!! I too agree that the quote “how easily and how often birth/first parents are completely erased from the lives of the adoptive family” does not ring true for most of the adoptive families/parents that i am directly acquainted with. That being said, however, it seems as though there is still a huge gap in communication between parent and child when it comes to discussing birth parents. I feel that many parents don’t have the experience or practice on how to talk about birth parents thus making it hard for them to discuss the topic with their children. Often when talking with young kids at our Youth Activity Group I ask if they think their parents (adoptive) ever think about their birth parents…I am SHOCKED at how many children reply “NO”. I am mostly shocked because I know most (if not all) of their parents and I KNOW they think about their child’s birth parents/families all the time. So, why do the kids say “NO”??

I just want to take a minute to point out that “adoptive families” consist not only of families with young children, but also consist of families with adult adoptees. I find it interesting that not one adoptive parent who has responded to this post has said that the statement “how easily and how often birth/first parents are completely erased from the lives of the adoptive family” is absolutely true for many adult adoptees, or at least asked if adult adoptees feel it is often true for them in their families.

Steph, thanks for responding to my question. Just so you know, I see that there are a lot of adoptive parents of young children who are trying to incorporate birth/first parents into family life. I can understand wanting to stand up and say that you are making them a part of your lives. I agree that A & B will probably go on to have more conversations. But B is representative of a lot of people in our culture. A is someone who’s had the benefit of having an adult transracial adoptee as a friend. And that makes all the difference.

I think the post was trying to point out that it is easy for adoptee/birthparent issues to be erased because we live in a culture that’s dominated by biological relations, and those form the model of what a family should be like. Just as it’s easy for racism/LGBTQ/ women’s issues to be erased, because those issues are not part of the dominant culture.

I’m wondering if part of the answer to Astrid’s question is that kid’s reply “No,” not just because they sense this on the part of their adoptive parents, but also because the world they live in is one where the idea of having one’s birth/first parents be an ongoing part of one’s life is not an accepted reality yet.

If adoptive parents of young kids want to make that world a reality, I think they have to do more than just the list of things Steph mentioned (as awesome as this list is!!), they also have to become allies with adult adoptees who are speaking these difficult truths and help us to change the erasing/silencing of birth/first parents and the silencing of adult adoptees.

2nd Parent: Hey 3rd child, some really smart people who know a lot about adoption told me that it is easy to forget about your 1st parents. In fact, there is a ton of research that supports the importance of us talking about this otherwise you will have some big problems when you get older. I have an awesome list of 12 things to do make your 1st parents an ongoing part of your life and to connect you to the culture you were born into, but it’s really not enough so let’s talk.

3rd Child: Great, 2nd mommy, tell me about my 1st mommy and daddy and the country they come from.

2nd Parent: Well, let’s see. Your 1st daddy smuggled under-aged girls into the country and would sell them to someone else and before he would sell them he would rape them.

3rd Child: Isn’t that illegal?

2nd Parent: Yes it is, but that is what your 1st daddy did for a living. 3rd child, I am just speaking the difficult truths to avoid the erasing/silencing of 1st parents.

3rd Child: What about my 1st mommy?

2nd Parent: Humm, she was 14 years old and was a drug addict. Your 2nd daddy and I think that when she found out she was pregnant with you that she continued to use drugs in an attempt to abort you.

3rd Child: Don’t kids whose 1st mommies use drugs have some pretty bad problems after they are born?

2nd Parent: Some do and some don’t, but we think you’re okay. We’ll know more as you get older.

3rd Child: Can we sometime go to visit my 1st parents?

2nd Parent: Sure, but I should let you know that your 1st mommy has made it clear that she doesn’t want anything to do with you because she now has other children and a husband and hasn’t told anyone about you. Your 1st mommy would be too ashamed if her other children and husband knew about you.

3rd Child: Why would she be ashamed of me? What about my 1st daddy?

2nd Parent: Well, we are not sure, but we think your 1st daddy is in a prison somewhere.

3rd Child: So tell me about my cultural background.

2nd Parent: You come from a country that doesn’t believe in educating girls and doesn’t allow girls and women basic freedoms. In fact, girls and women must obey their fathers and husbands. They cannot vote, go to school, or work outside the home.

3rd Child: Wow, tell me more.

2nd Parent: Well, if you were born a boy then you would probably still be with your 1st mommy and daddy, but the culture of your 1st parents does not think much about girls. I think that your 1st mommy and her new husband have all boys in their family.

3rd Child: Hey, can we get a flag from my 1st parents’ country and hang it up in my room?

2nd Parent: Sure. You should be proud of and connected to the culture of your 1st parents, or at least that’s what the adoption experts have been telling me otherwise you will be upset with me and your 2nd daddy when you get older.

3rd Child: Why do you keep calling me 3rd child and want me to call you and daddy 2nd mommy and 2nd daddy? I thought you love all of us equally and I thought you told me that you are my “real” mommy and daddy, aren’t you?

2nd Parent: Well, you are my 3rd child because your 2nd daddy and I already have a 1st and 2nd child. I’m sorry, but that is just a fact. Regarding us being your 2nd parents, “you already have a (1st) daddy (and a 1st mommy).”

3rd Child: This has been a really great talk 2nd mommy. Thank you for not erasing/silencing my 1st parents and helping me to feel more connected to my culture. Let’s go through that “awesome list” and see what else we can do.

M- Ok, if there was any doubt from your previous posts, there is none now. You have clarified perfectly what you truly feel about First Parents (and originating countries). My heart aches for your adoptive child/children because you are clearly misguided and ignorant. My only consolation is that when they are older, there is an established and diverse adoptee community that will welcome them with open arms, and will support them in a way that clearly you are unable to.

Shame on you. You give adoptive parents a bad name.

Actually, you have no idea what I think about my child’s birthparents and the country from which she comes. While you obviously didn’t get it, the example presented above was to ellucidate how both sides have skewed thinking and make wopping generalizations about one another. It also ellucidates how “one size does not fit all” for adoptees, adoptive parents, and birthparents. Each adoption is unique and should be treated as such. And yes, in many cases the situation is not pretty and is frought with a great deal of pain for everyone involved. While I am an adoptive parent, adoption is very present in my life and it has been my experience that each individual and situation is different. Some want and seek out a connection. Others are not interested. Others are conflicted. I have regularly opened that door for my own child and she has yet to walk through it, but I will continue to open it despite the difficulty or pain it may evoke for all involved. You can call me ignorant, you can shame me, you can put me down, you can call me angry, you can say whatever you want; but what you cannot do is keep me from loving and nurturing my children, helping them to navigate their very complex world more successfully, attempt to explain to them the unexplainable, help to soothe and console them when they are in pain, and do it all with my eyes wide open to the many different perspecitves about what is “in their best interest.” But, ultimately, as their parent it is my obligation to make the final decisions about what is in their best interest, not you or anyone else for that matter. What I found interesting is that this all started with my challenging an opinion and what I beleived to be an overgeneralization with the hopes that others might get outside of their own situation and possibly better understand things in a different way. Some who responded may have new ways of thinking, while others have become more polarized in their thinking, while others have written me off as “wacked.” I accept any of the outcomes, but hope for new more enlightened thinking that is not so self serving It is unfortunate that for a group to feel cohesive and connected they must establish an enemy which I feel has happened here.

I think M has an important voice (just like all the other people who share on this blog) and I am glad she is sharing her perspective.

I believe M is shining a light on the hard truths that some adoptive parents wrestle with. I agree that adoption theory is not one size fits all. Just like many of us adoptive parents don’t always get it right – social workers, therapists and adoption professionals also don’t always get it right. As parents it is our job to learn everything we can, research, work with professionals but most of all LISTEN TO OUR CHILD and our gut.

I came home from a workshop where adult adoptees said something was an absolute must. I dutifully tried to offer that to my child – but it was not what she wanted or needed. Fortunately my child is strong willed, verbal and clear about what is helpful to her and what is not.

I am not going to get everything right – (if you ever meet my child, she will be happy to share a long list of improvements she would like to see in me.) I am committed to being a life long learner about what is in my child’s best interests.

The field of adoption has vastly changed in the last 50 or more years. Practices that were common 25 years ago are considered to be damaging today.

“Each adoption is unique and should be treated as such.”

Of course. No one fully knows everything about another’s adoption or about another parent’s adopted child. But there are some factors which are more likely to apply than others, particularly in overseas adoption.

“You can call me ignorant, you can shame me, you can put me down, you can call me angry, you can say whatever you want; but what you cannot do is keep me from loving and nurturing my children”

And no one would attempt to do that. You told me I was making a generalization in regards to when (how) most adoptive parents think about birthparents, and I gave you a post so that you see where my train of thought was coming from – not to bash or make generalizations.

I wasn’t picking random statements out of the sky as if to prove how much adoptive parents suck. :\ I believe there are many awesome adoptive parent allies, such as the one whose blog I linked you to. I believe there are many adoptive parents who honestly, truly try their best to talk openly about the birthparents. But I still think there are times of convenience where the birth-parents can be pushed out of (spiritual) sight, out of mind.

“I believe M is shining a light on the hard truths that some adoptive parents wrestle with.”

And I agree with this, too – even if it’s a tangent of what the original discussion was about before it spread out into a myriad of issues.

During all discussions, let’s remember one thing: only the USA has closed , for life, adoption practices. Most countries in the world are OPEN. Even the UK, NZ, Australia, which used to mail your adoption file to the adoptee upon 18th birthday, are now incorporating ‘all parents’ in the daily lives of their children.

‘Knowing’ is and has been proven to allow for normalcy in development in life’.
The child ‘knowing’ all parents, the biological parents ‘knowing’ where their child is, and the adoptive parents ‘knowing’ DNA, cultural heritage,interests, and personality of their child to help bonding successfully.

‘Ethics in adoption and fertility are a must’.

M, there is an inbetween that I believe works for families whose adoption stories are more complicated, in fact it works for ours. We have a great relationship with my daughters fabulous first mom and we have a nonexistent relationship with her first dad for reasons that are complicated and difficult. My daughter, who is five, very much misses the presence of her bio dad in her life and we have worked to find age appropriate ways to explain his necessary absence and still honor her feelings of affection for him. He is OF her and she will need to learn how to integrate the truth of him (including the hard truths) into her own feelings. I believe I can best help her do that by being careful in the words I use when we talk about him so that I give her the information that is appropriate to her age but is not a lie. It’s hard work. But she has a right to careful, respectful honesty and an ongoing dialogue so that when she IS ready for more of the story, we have established our family’s respect for her right to have it.

c.b. – I am curious to read more about what you mean when you wrote ‘Ethics in adoption and fertility are a must’? Also, I would love to hear more about how international adoptions are viewed in these other countries where there is the attitude of openness?

Dawn – I really appreciate your respect for your daughter and her need to know the truth!

M is right! If the birthparents wanted to be in the “picture” then they should have raised thier child. Let’s be honest, if people want to have a relationship with their child they would “step to the plate” and do a good job of being a parent. It isn’t the aparents “job” to keep the spirt of the bparents ” alive” in the child life-they aren’t babysitter!

What a vile and ignorant thing to say, andra! I would not have placed my son for adoption if I hadn’t had a legally enforceable open adoption–I wanted the best thing for him, and I wanted him to know me. I thought that choosing adoption was the best parenting decision I could make as a poor, unmarried woman. Seeing me every couple of months doesn’t make his parents babysitters.

as an adoptee i’m forced to interact with all my parent’s red-neck and racist blood relatives. Why can’t they deal with MY blood relatives??

Susiebook:

“What a vile and ignorant thing to say, andra! I would not have placed my son for adoption if I hadn’t had a legally enforceable open adoption–I wanted the best thing for him, and I wanted him to know me. ”

My point exactly, if you wanted to raise your child you would have-the aparents aren’t babysitters and it’s not their job to keep “your” memory alive in the child’s life.

Susiebook, thank you for your comment and for sharing your story. As you may already know, we at Adoption Mosaic have a mission to connect, HONOR and serve the adoption community. We seek to create a safe and honest place to dialogue the complexities of adoption– and the way this conversation is going does not feel that way. It is very painful for me to read comments like the one above, because your story and your place in the constellation deserves to be honored, too.

It is important to remember that the reason why many of us work so hard to connect our children with their birth families is because we believe it is in the best interest of our children. Some of us also believe that as a result of adoption, our child’s birth parents and siblings are now part of our family too.

Susiebook’s story illustrates how far adoption has come. An empowered mom selects a great family for her child and legally ensures that her child will never have to wonder, “Who was my mom?” “Did she love me?” “Why did she give me up?” “Will I ever meet her?” etc… I imagine Susiebook’s son will grow up feeling emotionally secure due to having both birth/first and adoptive parents present in his life.

I would like to encourage c.b. to guest blog and share more information about adoption practices in other countries.

Andra: I just don’t see it as babysitting. I don’t understand where the comparison is useful. It’s not like I show up and anyone says “Oh, thank God, the biological mother is here!” It’s just “Hi, Susie!” Of course I wanted to raise my son–not a day goes by that I don’t wish he was with me–but I also wanted him to have health insurance, and since I couldn’t have both, I tried to pick the one that was better for him.

My son’s adoptive parents are the ones he calls “Mama” and “Abba,” they know what his bedtime routine is, they dress him in the morning and decide what he’ll do every day. I do none of these things. How does this make them sound like babysitters?

I shouldn’t have been so negative the first time–I felt attacked, I was angry about that. I apologize. The point of view you express is one that I find extremely offensive, but it if makes sense to you, I’d like to understand it better.

II am new to this blog and though my immediate gut reaction was to feverishly respond to the many offensive statements made here, I took some time to think about it and here is what I would like to add.

Adoptive Parents, please remember that you were the ones that ultimately suffered the least when it came to adoption. You gained the child, the opportunity to parent and even in this day and age, you are still the most honored and revered group with the most accepted voice. Though I understand this blog is for open and honest discussion of feelings, I have to say I was astonished at the often irreverent tone of some of the statements made by Adoptive Parents. At the very least, I would hope as A Parents you could be respectful of an Adoptees journey when you dialogue with them (no matter how old or whether they are yours or not). Remember, the Adoptee had no voice at all, and has experienced a journey you cannot possibly fully comprehend. So don’t take it personally when you hear the anger, pain and grief that accompanies that journey

Also remember that you cannot know what the true experience of the Birth Mother was and is, just as you will never know exactly what feelings and thoughts your Adopted Child will protect from you because of their fears of abandonment and rejection which all of us feel. Even in a “normal” parent child relationship, children often don’t tell us “everything.” You can be assured that your adopted child will tell you less and will often let you believe what is most comfortable for you, and everyone. We are the ultimate “soothers.” It was “our job” from the day we were placed for adoption and we do it without conscious thought.

Also remember that there are so many lies told during the adoption experience to all members of the triad. They are told by people who with good intentions and some with not so good intentions. Either way, only the people whose experience and life it was can honestly tell the true story. Leave it to them and don’t repeat what may not be true. Even if it is true, there is likely much more there you don’t understand, so again leave it to them to explain. I cannot phantom a good reason for any parent to feel the need to demonstrate anything but respect for their child’s story and the people whose blood courses through their veins, whether you like them or not. When you are degrading to your child’s birth families, you are degrading your child. They are them and are here because of them, remember that before you speak of them.

You cannot have an adoption experience that does not have pain, loss and fears attached with it. It is part of the story and that is the place you should always operate from, if for no other reason but for the love of “our children.” In the end I would say to those Adoptive Parents who think you have some automatic rights to our children, rights that trump basic human rights and desires.. . . Birth Mothers rarely “give up” their children to adoption. The ones that “make the choice” feel there are no other options based on many factors, the greater of which are suggested by our society, both political and religious. The others that may “lose them to adoption” were without the tools and experience to be the parents they should be. Neither of these situations mean that we, or our children should abandon our rights to know of one another and have one another in our lives should we choose (and before you go there. . .I strongly agree children must be kept safe from harm, but there will be a time in their life they can take care of themselves and it should be their choice).

Now, one finally message, which is going to be my strongest. Birth mothers (fathers). . .no matter what fabric we are made of, are not walking uterus’ here to populate the world with children for others who want “one.” We can all agree that there are many people that should not have children, and that children deserve to have safe and loving homes. This is an imperfect world, let’s not make it more imperfect by feeding our own egos and identities before we recognize and honor the basic human rights of all people, to know their people and where they come from. I appreciate and respect that it must be very difficult for those that would like to have a child of their own and can’t. But if you cannot respect and honor the adopted child’s birth family, their story and their basic human rights, than you have no business adopting children, whatever your reason. If you cannot or will not do this, I suggest dogs. . .they don’t seem to care about their histories once given a good home.

Now. . .let’s see where this takes us. T – Both Birth Mother and Adoptee

Nicely written response, T. A couple of things emerged for me. One is the inherent negative bias you have towards adoptees. Why do you believe that adoption is inherently a bad thing and will lead to pain? I have not read any research that supports that contention. The only thing I have seen is that adoptees are more likely to receive mental health services, but that is not related to having more problems than their non-adopted counterparts. But, to me you are saying that adoptees are somehow worse off than others because of their adoption and not being raised by their biological parents. Is this your feeling or can you direct me to the research that supports this? How is it different for adoptees with one biological parent, adoptees with two biological relatives as parents (e.g., grandparents), or people who are the product of a surogate? Two, you are explicit that no one can understand your experience because they are not adopted or are not birthparents. But then you go on to talk about adoptive parents like you understand and know what they are thinking and feeling. You can’t have it both ways. And I am not a big believer in the whole “you cannot understand unless you have experienced” argument. I think that leads to overgeneralizations. Just because I am African-American should I assume that other African-Americans understand and know my experience. I believe that notion has been debunked time and time again. Just as I am not the voicepiece for all African-American women, you are not the voicepiece for all adoptees and birthparents. Finally, you made the comment about people “who would like to have a child of their own and can’t.” This is where the conversation goes really wrong. Children are not owned by their parents. I believe, as I have said before, parenting is a term of action and one that is earned, but being someone’s parent does not make that child your property regardless of your blood connection to that child. There is a great poem by Khalil Gibran that nicely expresses this sentiment. I recommend it to you.

“I find it interesting that not one adoptive parent who has responded to this post has said that the statement “how easily and how often birth/first parents are completely erased from the lives of the adoptive family” is absolutely true for many adult adoptees, or at least asked if adult adoptees feel it is often true for them in their families.”

As an adult adoptee who only found out at the age of 31 that I was adopted – I can say that my original parents were most definitely ERASED from my life by my adoptive parents.

M – How much time do you spend in groups of adoptees and birth mothers? I spend a great deal of time and read a great deal of information written by them. I think if you did more of this, you would hear the same similar stories and messages communincated, in addition to what is resonating here. I not only believe that I have a better understanding because I am 2 of the 3 things in the triad, but also because I have taken the time to involve myself deeply in understanding the different journies.

And in answer to your question.. .YES, I do believe it is best for EVERYONE in a family to be biologically connected, but sadly, that isn’t the world we live in.

As for owning children. ..I agree whole heartedly. It was one of my ‘ah ha” moments during this 2 years of self discovery and reunions. But I will tell you that I haven’t met an adoptee yet that didn’t feel a bit like property and thus “owed” the people that adopted them something, even in spite of themselves.

To your statement of me not knowing the Adooptive Parents experience, you seems to gloss over things, if they don’t give you the oppoortunity to debate? I explicity said in my last paragraph that i recognize it must be difficult for folks that would like to have thier own children and can’t. I will add here that I would imagine it is very difficult for people who parents, only to have thier children still long for someone else and something more.

I am not sure where you have taken from my words that I am trying to speak to the Adoptive Parents experience. The tone of my message rested on the 2 experience I am intimately aware of, and based on the previous discussion, what I think you all should keep tucked in your thoughts and hearts as you relate to Adopted children and thier Birth Families. Again, I spend a lot of time with both of those groups and can tell you your words would be upsetting to both.

YOu know, there are great conferences and learnring experiences that would allow you to hear the voices of many adoptees and birth mothers which might help to soften your message. In those forums, I am sure you would hear the common thread in each of the 2 groups we discuss, that is if you are willing to listen. However, I get a sense from your posts that you may not be willing to go there?

Thank you for sharing the poem I will look it up. I have favorite saying to share with you from the beloved Alex Haley – In all of us there is a hunger, marrow-deep, to know our heritage, to know who we are and where we come from.

Have a good day. T

“Children are not owned by their parents. I believe, as I have said before, parenting is a term of action and one that is earned, but being someone’s parent does not make that child your property regardless of your blood connection to that child.”

Is there not a responsibility to keep the CHILD connected to his/her origins? Whether that be physical, emotional and/or spiritual – as long as it’s done in an age-appropriate manner and the child’s safety is not compromised.

The adoptive grandparents do not parent the child, nor do the aunts, uncles, cousins and everyone else in the adoptive family – yet the child is expected to maintain connections there just as if he/she were being raised by genetic relatives. How does having a relationship with biological family relegate the adoptive parents to the role of “long-term baby sitters” while having connections to the extended adoptive family does not?

This is reminiscent of divorce/remarriage issues where the remarried parent would love to keep the “ex” out of the picture and have the kid call the stepparent “Mommy” or “Daddy”.

What exactly does being called “Mom” or “Dad” imply for the parent? Ownership? Recognition? Control?

What does calling someone “Mom” or “Dad” imply for the child?

Who is the intended audience for this behavior? Would it matter if the child calls you “Mom” at home but not in public? Or in public but not at home?

Gaye – Thank you for sharing your story and getting the conversation back on track!

To answer your first question – Yes, I do think it is an adoptive parents responsibility to keep their children connected to their child’s origin. In my opinion, biological parents automatically do that for their birth children whether they are conscious of creating this connection or not. Through the adoptive families I have met, I see that APs have to face the challenges of basic parenting AND connecting their child(ren) to a culture or race that may not be their own.

Ditto on the age-appropriate and safe ways to do this for children.

Why does it all have to devolve into “I feel sorry for your children,” or “you’re angry, not me,” or “I’m sure you would never go to a conference for adult adoptees,” or “shame on you for thinking differently” or whatever . . ? I get your (adult adoptee’s) messages loud and clear about the importance of the birthfamily and connection to one’s roots. What I don’t hear is any room for a different opinion and if it is expressed, then I see an onslaught of personal attacks or implications that I don’t go to enough conferences or read enough books. As our beloved president is learning, the message will not be heard as long as it feels reactionary, cloaked in emotion, lacking evidence, and appearing to point fingers. I’ll say it again, “as long as you are screaming it is nearly impossible for me to hear you.” And whether you think so or not, I would like to hear and understand you better.

“as long as you are screaming it is nearly impossible for me to hear you.” And whether you think so or not, I would like to hear and understand you better.

I agree with the sentiment. I believe a little honey always makes things easier to hear and listen to. It is why I’m having such a difficult time hearing most of Your comments -it’s the screaming.

However, I, for one, am not going to ask people to sugar-coat their reality/experience just so that I can feel more comfortable with them. It’s my understanding that this blog and this conversation is not all about ME. And (crazy as it may seem) it’s not all about YOU. It’s about everyone. I appreciate all of the viewpoints being expressed, and I am learning from many of them.

To all:

Let’s be honest, aparents adopt children to become parents PERIOD! It’s not their responsibility to “remind” the child about their bparents-they didn’t sign up for that- and can you blame them ( that’s way I mentioned “babysitters”)! Their priority is the child and being an “excellent” parent in raising them. To think because their too busy raising a child ,and don’t have the time to remind the child their bparents love them or to keep the “spirit” of them “alive”, is erasing the bparents is insane. It also to me, sounds like an egotist – ” I’m not raising them ( by my choice) but DONT forget about me!

I’m sorry but if you want a “sure guarantee” your child will love, respect and remember you…then do an ” excellent job” of raising them. It’s the only way you can guarantee it.

Your post points out the fact that adoption is based on the needs of adults rather than children. It is about ownership and obtaining children for the need of parenting.

“Your post points out the fact that adoption is based on the needs of adults rather than children. It is about ownership and obtaining children for the need of parenting.”

Somewhat but let’s be honest – the bparent’s didn’t or couldn’t raise the child-so how was the child going to raise him/herself? Again, if one want’s to have a role in the child’s life, and be of importance, the only way to do that is to do an “excellent” job of raising them. As harsh as it maybe it’s the truth. One can’t expect to have a mom/child relationship if they aren’t activily raising the child and doing a good job at it.

“Why do you believe that adoption is inherently a bad thing and will lead to pain?”

So there are no consequences of a mother and child separation?

“Let’s be honest, aparents adopt children to become parents PERIOD! Let’s be honest, aparents adopt children to become parents PERIOD!”

Well yes… but isn’t that what parenting is about?

“Somewhat but let’s be honest – the bparent’s didn’t or couldn’t raise the child-so how was the child going to raise him/herself?”

How do you know the birth-parents didn’t want to raise the child? Because they “abandoned” their child? Because they “signed some papers”?

Okay, some children were physically unwanted. But that’s not exactly a good basis for making the argument that all adopted children probably would have been unwanted, and IF they were really wanted their b-parents would have kept them.

You have no idea some of the situations out there in which b-parents have been forced to relinquish. Not everyone has safe-keeping laws or access to things we consider a right – for example, health care. We take it for granted because we have the basic fundamental human right to it. Other countries? Not so much.

Kind of like the “if there’s a will, there is a way.”

That’s just privilege speaking. There could be a will, a strong desire to love and nurture the child, but in the face of no assistance, the “way” is deemed impossible to surmount.

“Again, if one want’s to have a role in the child’s life, and be of importance, the only way to do that is to do an “excellent” job of raising them.”

One does not need to be physically active in another’s life to declare a role. Sure, the adoptive mom is the one doing the parenting and being a mom. But it’s not a burden – it’s something the mom *wants* to do. Parenting in adoption is a privilege, not a right.

Also, relationships are not defined by physically arriving and leaving a person’s life. Roles aren’t that black and white, they are not specifically defined by any sort of precise moment in time or interaction.

Please don’t define adoptees’ b-parents for them. They have the right to define who their b-parents roles may or may not be in their own lives.

“One does not need to be physically active in another’s life to declare a role. Sure, the adoptive mom is the one doing the parenting and being a mom. But it’s not a burden – it’s something the mom *wants* to do. Parenting in adoption is a privilege, not a right.Also, relationships are not defined by physically arriving and leaving a person’s life. Roles aren’t that black and white, they are not specifically defined by any sort of precise moment in time or interaction.Please don’t define adoptees’ b-parents for them. They have the right to define who their b-parents roles may or may not be in their own lives.”

Mei Ling:

You’re right it is a privilege and it is something the amom WANTS and CAN DO. So why should she be responsible for keeping the “spirit” of the bparents “alive” when her PRIORITY is to be a good parent to her child, since the bparents weren’t able to/didn’t want to fulfill their roles ( I’m referring to DIA’s).

Really, you make it sounds like the kid is “on loan” so the amom can have the “privilege” of doing the hard work and should be “grateful” for doing the bparents job! Sorry, if you want the privilege and adoration of being your child’s “mom and dad” do an excellent job of raising them. Anything else is a cop-out when an individual wants to have the title/role without doing the work ( harsh but true).

A fellow adoptee

“Anything else is a cop-out when an individual wants to have the title/role without doing the work ( harsh but true).”

Do you only have a problem with living family? If the child was placed for adoption because the parents are deceased – does that change your argument?

Sorry, DIA’s? I’m not familiar with that term.

“You’re right it is a privilege and it is something the amom WANTS and CAN DO.”

Ah, but you are assuming the b-parent didn’t “want” or “couldn’t” do so on the basis that the child was abandoned or that the papers were signed.

Maybe the b-parent wasn’t given the chance to parent?

The a-mom’s priority is being a good parent – including keeping the spiritual memory of the b-parent alive. That is also what factors into being a good adoptive parent. Because adoptive parenting is due to another woman who gave up her child – either by abandonment, “forced” consent, or because there were no other options.

“Really, you make it sounds like the kid is “on loan” so the amom can have the “privilege” of doing the hard work and should be “grateful” for doing the bparents job!”

You’re making it seem like I said the adoptive mom should be grateful for being up the burden of parenting, which is not what I said. I said it was a privilege, not a right – parenting isn’t supposed to be a burden. Don’t make it sound like that. And that’s not what I meant.

A mother adopts because she wants to parent. I did not indicate it was a punishment on behalf of the biological mother, please don’t pretend I am implying as such.

She is able to adopt because someone else had to surrender. This is all done on the basis that the someone else WANTED to surrender – which may not have been the case.

The adoptive mom gets to be a parent, which is a blessing. But she isn’t doing it out of any sort of obligation. She’s doing it because she wants to and someone else wasn’t able to, or were told they couldn’t, or believed they couldn’t. It doesn’t mean they couldn’t. It means they were led to BELIEVE they couldn’t or felt they couldn’t. It doesn’t mean they WOULDN’T have been able to. Not believing you’re capable of doing something at the time doesn’t mean you would have unable to do it – it just means you THINK or BELIEVE you couldn’t have done it. Emotional truth doesn’t always mean factual truth.

So the adoptive mom is parenting because of someone else. The adoptive mom wants to parent, to love and raise a child. IMO, part of the responsibility of adoptive parenting is that she respect the child’s biological parent.

Stop making this so black and white – you’re still defining what every adoptee’s “real” parents are. Some of us like to declare we have four very real parents who all play different roles.

“Anything else is a cop-out when an individual wants to have the title/role without doing the work ( harsh but true).

Do you only have a problem with living family? If the child was placed for adoption because the parents are deceased – does that change your argument?’

Gaye:

When a child’s parents are deceased it’s a totally different thing. Placing a child in TODAY’S age is a choice ( at least in America). The Bparent chose to place their child. Regardless of the situation they may have been in, they chose to forgo the responsibility of raising the child. That’s a huge difference between having parents who are deceased vs. having parents who didn’t want to / couldn’t raise a child.

Mei:

“Ah, but you are assuming the b-parent did’t “want” or “couldn’t’t” do so on the basis that the child was abandoned or that the papers were signed.

Maybe the b-parent wasn’t given the chance to parent?”

According to the Evan Donaldson inst., today’s birthmother is older and is parenting a child/children already. Some women don’t want to be parents or “do the hard work again”. Just because one can have children doesn’t mean they want to be mothers or they’re the right person to raise the child. Yes I agree respect for the child’s biology is important, but raising, nurturing and loving the child as one’s own is priority.

“You’re making it seem like I said the adoptive mom should be grateful for being up the burden of parenting, which is not what I said. I said it was a privilege, not a right – parenting isn’t supposed to be a burden. Don’t make it sound like that. And that’s not what I meant.”

I interpreted what you wrote as: “well the amom chose to be a parent ( and it’s a privilege) so she should be GRATEFUL to the bmom for ALLOWING her to raise the kid”. Like I said before, the child isn’t on “loan”. The bmom wasn’t able to or didn’t want to raise her child- she needed someone else to take on her responsibility. Because the amom is taking on someone else’s responsibility doesn’t mean she “owes” the bmom and must always keep the bmom “spirit” alive. Her responsibility is to be a good parent to her child. That is responsibility and obligation the amom signed up for.

A fellow adoptee

Hmm, I think I see where the miscommunication is happening.

“well the amom chose to be a parent ( and it’s a privilege) so she should be grateful to the bmom for ALLOWING her to raise the kid”

is being conveyed to:

“Like I said before, the child isn’t on “loan”

It’s not about being “on loan.” Because of the basis in adoption, one woman parents because another has surrendered. The mother by adoption HAS been given a blessing – not a burden – and IMO part of that blessing is keeping the spiritual memory of the other woman alive.

I suppose we will have to agree to disagree on this one.

“Just because one can have children doesn’t mean they want to be mothers or is the right person to raise the child.”

I agree. But I also believe it is inherently built within biology for a mother to care and nurture her young. It doesn’t always happen – things can go wrong and DO go wrong – but it is what many of us have been taught to believe.

And I am referring to IA where the biological mother does not have laws of protection, where the mother may not have had any assistance or been offered resources.

Devil’s Advocate: Maybe she didn’t want to parent. Maybe she truly doesn’t love her child. Maybe she really did just birth that little life and toss it out into the marketplace to be abandoned. Maybe this is the rare case where she doesn’t give two hoots about her own child.

I doubt women who truly do NOT want or care about their children in IA are the majority.

Frankly, I realize that my Devil’s Advocate situation could have applied in China and Korea where the value of females is reduced and infanticide is willingly committed in favour for a boy in rural areas.

I am also not naive enough to believe that *thousands* of women are uncaring enough to just heartlessly pitch their own children out into the world without a care or any emotional trace of humanity. That’s an awful lot of mothers who supposedly don’t love or care about their children. Kind of concerning.

“Just because one can have children doesn’t mean they want to be mothers or is the right person to raise the child. I agree. But I also believe it is inherently built within biology for a mother to care and nurture her young. It doesn’t always happen – things can go wrong and DO go wrong – but it is what many of us have been taught to believe.”

Mei:

How times have you read about a child being killed by their parents? It’s become so common it’s disgusting! In domestic infant adoption many of the bmom’s who place their child have a child/children already. When a mother chooses to “keep” one/some and place the other, I seriously doubt she was forced. Like I said before, some women don’t want to do the “hard work again and have an extra mouth to feed”. In the case of IA, I do agree that it is a totally different situation. Many countries don’t have social services needed for a woman to keep and provide for her child. In regrads to parenting- parenting is a blessing not a burden. What I read from you ( and still do, so correct me if I’m wrong) is “well the amom “owes” the bmom for allowing her to raise the child; so she’s obligated to the bmom to keep “her” spirit alive.”

Again, the bmom isn’t doing the amom a favor by allowing her to raise the child. The bmom couldn’t or didn’t to want to raise the child in the first place.

“It isn’t the aparents “job” to keep the spirt of the bparents ” alive” in the child life”

Andra, the child’s birth parents ARE ALREADY SPIRITUALLY ALIVE in the adopted child’s life. Adopted children do think about their birthmothers: they create many different fantasies about her, they worry about her, they pray for her, they’re angry at her, they feel sad for her, they long to know what she looks like, they long to meet her and hold her. These are all a range of responses an adopted child can have. So the spiritual presence is very much alive.

It is a parent’s job to be able to provide a safe and nurturing environment where a child feels comfortable expressing and exploring all their feelings–not just the ones that make parents comfortable! I completely validate that this is challenging, both for adoptive parents and parents who are raising their biological kids. That’s why parenting is the most amazing growth experience one can have in one’s life. That’s why it is a blessing to be able to raise a child.

I would have greatly appreciated if my parents had had the education and resources to be able to recognize that I needed to be able to explore and talk with them about all my feelings about my birthmother and birthfamily.

So the question really is do you feel that adoptive parents have a responsibility to provide a safe and nurturing emotional environment for the spiritual presence of the birthfamily that already exists in the adopted child’s heart and soul?

“So the question really is do you feel that adoptive parents have a responsibility to provide a safe and nurturing emotional environment for the spiritual presence of the birthfamily that already exists in the adopted child’s heart and soul?”

As an adoptee yes I agree with you, to a point. Since I was a child I’ve always knew I was adopted. That I had two mothers and two fathers BUT one set of parents ( which I believe is true). My parents always welcomed questions from me about being adopted ( I’m 42 years old). But I was taught and shown that they ARE my parents. Their priority was to love, nurture and guide me into this world.

That’s the responsibility and obligation they “owed” me and my bparents. It’s wasn’t their job to keep my bparent’s “spirit” alive because they weren’t raising me, they didn’t sign up for that. To think if aparents don’t constantly talk about the bparents ( means erasing their presence) is unreasonable. The aparents sign-up to be parents not keep the spirit of the bparents alive-the kid’s not on loan.

Andra,

Thanks for explaining more. I do understand more about where you’re coming from, and I can respect that the experience you’ve had is different and is shaping your views in a different way.

It sounds like you had parents that were very open and where you always felt comfortable asking any questions or sharing any thoughts as you needed to . It doesn’t sound like you ever felt guilty, uncomfortable, ashamed, scared, or nervous about exploring any feelings with them, or sensed that your parents didn’t want to talk about your birthfamily. I’m really glad that you felt that level of ease.

Some kids may actually feel that level of ease bringing up their birthparents when they need to. But there are lots of kids that don’t. This is where the idea of the adoptive parents being able to comfortably bring up the birthparents (and not wait on their adoptive kids) comes into play. Because how can you know for sure if your child has that level of ease?

I’ll give you a personal example here. (I’m sharing it in the hopes that it can add to our discussion.) My mother one day told me that I had a birthsister and that if I wanted to, she would take me to see her. Now maybe your response would have been, “Let’s go!” Mine was shock, fear, and numbness. I said, “”No,” when what I actually meant was, “Oh my God, I’m so afraid right now. I really want to see her, but I’m so afraid.” My mother said she’d never bring up the topic again. I couldn’t even speak at that moment, so I couldn’t tell her anything different. And the experience was so intense for me that I completely blocked out that she’d told me I had a sister. But if my mother had brought up the subject again, let’s say in a week or so, and talked it through with me, I know that I would have been able to say, “Yes, please take me to meet her.” My mother really didn’t know better and she was doing the best she could. I so wish she’d had the tools to do things differently in that case.

“My parents always welcomed questions”

I think that adoptive parents should not just welcome questions but initiate conversation. One of the ways of making sure that that conversation feels safe is to bring up the child’s birthparents so the child feels comfortable, and it’s not scary when they do initiate conversation.

“Since I was a child I’ve always knew I was adopted. That I had two mothers and two fathers BUT one set of parents ( which I believe is true).”

I think everyone’s definition of what “parents” means to them is personal. I validate your choice to call only the mom and dad who you grew up with your parents. But if someone else wants to call their birthmother and birthfather their parents, shouldn’t they be allowed to? I personally am giving myself as much freedom as possible to explore what language feels comfortable for me. I see it changing over time. I think every adopted kid and adult should have that freedom.

Livia:

“I’ll give you a personal example here. (I’m sharing it in the hopes that it can add to our discussion.) My mother one day told me that I had a birthsister and that if I wanted to, she would take me to see her. Now maybe your response would have been, “Let’s go!” Mine was shock, fear, and numbness. I said, “”No,” when what I actually meant was, “Oh my God, I’m so afraid right now. I really want to see her, but I’m so afraid.” My mother said she’d never bring up the topic again. I couldn’t even speak at that moment, so I couldn’t tell her anything different. And the experience was so intense for me that I completely blocked out that she’d told me I had a sister. But if my mother had brought up the subject again, let’s say in a week or so, and talked it through with me, I know that I would have been able to say, “Yes, please take me to meet her.” My mother really didn’t know better and she was doing the best she could. I so wish she’d had the tools to do things differently in that case.”

Livia:

Your mother was doing the best that she could based on your reaction; that’s her job as a parent to protect you. You can’t fault her for not asking the question again.

“I think that adoptive parents should not just welcome questions but initiate conversation. One of the ways of making sure that that conversation feels safe is to bring up the child’s birthparents so the child feels comfortable, and it’s not scary when they do initiate conversation.”

I’m on the fence about this bacause some parents may talk about adoption too much to the point where it’s annoying. Adoption is part of their life, NOT their whole life/identity.

“I think everyone’s definition of what “parents” means to them is personal. I validate your choice to call only the mom and dad who you grew up with your parents. But if someone else wants to call their birthmother and birthfather their parents, shouldn’t they be allowed to? I personally am giving myself as much freedom as possible to explore what language feels comfortable for me. I see it changing over time. I think every adopted kid and adult should have that freedom.”

Of course they should have the freedom to call the bparents “mom & dad”, if they want to. However, it would be “respectful and considerate” to ask the aparents if they are comfortable “sharing” the titles. I know after I met my bparents I asked if my aparents if they were “comfortable” with sharing the title of “grandma & grandpa” ( I call my bparents by their first names)?

Livia,

I appreciate the specific example you provided about your birth sister. This resonates with me and I will definitely keep it in mind when parenting my child.

“Adoptive parents have a responsibility to provide a safe and nurturing emotional environment for the spiritual presence of the birth family that already exists in the adopted child’s heart and soul.” This statement is beautifully worded.

I completely agree with Steph; thank you Livia for sharing your thoughts, insights, and experiences.

I’ve read through this whole discussion, and the majority of conversation has centered around the aparents and bparents. Rights, privilages, responsibility.
I believe that aparents have steered the conversation in this direction, actualy it’s pretty obvious that this is true.
There has been a very defensive posture in this “steering” .

Parenting is not a right, yes in fact it is a great privilage, AND a very solemn responsibility… to the child…PERIOD. As a parent, your needs come last. The child is NEVER responsible to you. He/she did not make that choice, YOU did.

I won’t comment on but the last round of posts and more specificaly Andra’s comment:
“As an adoptee yes I agree with you, to a point. Since I was a child I’ve always knew I was adopted. That I had two mothers and two fathers BUT one set of parents ( which I believe is true). My parents always welcomed questions from me about being adopted ( I’m 42 years old). But I was taught and shown that they ARE my parents. Their priority was to love, nurture and guide me into this world.”

I myself have always known I was adopted. I was also regularly reminded of the fact. (I also had an added dimension of being part of a foster home from age 5-15, I grew up knowing the various reasons children were relinquished, but never my own)
That your parents welcomed questions about your adoption is commendable, but did they ever initiate such discussion with you? I highly doubt that due to your next statement that “you were taught (by them) that THEY were your parents” The unspoken message that rings loud and clear is that your natural parents WERE NOT.

That was also the case in my family, adoption was acknowledged, but not talked about. That’s how it was done back then (I’m 47).
Today we have the opportunity and responsibility to reach beyond that, to encourage TRUTH in an age appropriate manner, no matter what the circumastances of relinquishment may be.
Today we have the tools to do that without shame on any party involved.
The only thing that does not change is the child’s need for love, caring and acceptance, and yes the desire for their own flesh and blood.
Sorry to say, no matter how loving and caring you may be, no matter if you’re the perfect model parent, you can never be THAT.

THAT in todays world is the responsibility that adoptive parents carry, and yes it is an extra burden that you agree to. We know more today than they did then. It’s not about who is the better parent, it’s about the child and his/her needs. PERIOD

In MY life, I respected my mom (that would be my amom) so much that I’ve only just begun to search for my birth mom. Choosing to respect her love by not doing so while she was alive.
Some ask why I didn’t search without her knowledge. The reason is twofold,
1) my sis searched at a young age in anger and I saw the pain it caused.
2) is more involved…
My want and need to know where I came from did not just appear when mom died. It was there all along, from an early age. And she knew it all along, but never spoke of it. We were VERY close. In her later years we shared the pain of being widowed (my first wife passed in the 90s, mom passed in ‘06) and how that affected each of us in our daily life. I could not hide it from her, so I waited.
She never said the exact words, but not long before she died, she told me that it was ok and that she understood. I hope I didn’t wait too long.
I’ve always needed to know the truth, she was only capable of giving me the briefest of glimpses of what that truth might be.
Today’s adoptive parents have the tools that she did not. They have a RESPONSIBILITY to use them to their child’s best advantage.
It’s not about the parent, it’s ALWAYS about the child, EVERY TIME, PERIOD.
If you can’t handle it, you’re in the wrong business, PERIOD

Dan

Hi Dan,

Thank you so much for sharing your story. I feel so strongly that every time someone tells their story, it adds so much to all our knowledge and emotional understanding.

I wanted to let you know that Adoption Mosaic is in the very beginning stages of creating a Search & Reunion section on our website, and, hopefully one day, other resources for those who are interested in Search & Reunion.

I’d like to invite you to email us at blogATadoptionmosaicDOTorg with any suggestions you might have about the types of things you’d like to see included in our Search & Reunion section.

I am sending you much positive energy for this journey you are undertaking. And please keep us updated on your progress if you feel comfortable doing so.

Steph & M, I’m glad to hear that my sharing of this experience was helpful! As I said to Dan above, I feel that the more that those in the constellation share their stories, the more we all learn.

“That your parents welcomed questions about your adoption is commendable, but did they ever initiate such discussion with you? I highly doubt that due to your next statement that “you were taught (by them) that THEY were your parents” The unspoken message that rings loud and clear is that your natural parents WERE NOT.”

Dan:

My” birth” parents aren’t my parents( sorry I can’t use the title “natural” parents to describe them because they didn’t raise me). As Livia said, and I agree, how we adoptees describe our aparents and bparents IS a personal choice. And as I have said before, my parent’s “job and responsibility” was to love, nurture and raise me, not “keep” the spirit of my bparents alive by asking questions. I’ve always known I was adopted, there’s no shame in it, but to EXCPECT/DEMAND the aparents keep the “spirit” of the bparents as a constant reminder to the child
because they “owe” the bparents, is like saying: ” yeah, you’re raising them for me ( the kid’s on loan) so don’t forget to mention me consistently (because I’m the “real” parent).

Let’s be honest, if you ( bparent) want to be a constant figure in the child’s life and be of importance-raise them! An adopted child needs to know that the people raising them aren’t going anywhere.

“That was also the case in my family, adoption was acknowledged, but not talked about. That’s how it was done back then (I’m 47).
Today we have the opportunity and responsibility to reach beyond that, to encourage TRUTH in an age appropriate manner, no matter what the circumstances of relinquishment may be.
Today we have the tools to do that without shame on any party involved.
The only thing that does not change is the child’s need for love, caring and acceptance, and yes the desire for their own flesh and blood.
Sorry to say, no matter how loving and caring you may be, no matter if you’re the perfect model parent, you can never be THAT.”

Dan:
You should be happy your adoption was acknowledged. When we were born, adoption and telling the child was taboo/discouraged-your parents did the BEST that they could. The only thing they “owed” you and your bparents was the respect of telling you, you were adopted and that they love, nurture and raise you. That’s the “only” obligation your aparents “owed” your bparents. Also I don’t know why you keep mentioning parenting as a burden? Is that why your bmom placed you, because she thought you were a burden?

And to be honest, I think too much attention is placed on “flesh & blood”; it takes more to being a PARENT then giving birth.

P.S. Do you call you aparents “mom& dad” or do you address them as your
” aparents” and call your bio parents “mom & dad?”

“Parenting is not a right, yes in fact it is a great privilage, AND a very solemn responsibility… to the child…PERIOD. As a parent, your needs come last. The child is NEVER responsible to you. He/she did not make that choice, YOU did.”

Dan:

You’re right and there are A LOT of people who find themselves pregnant and DON’T want to be parents. When a person decides to raise another person’s child as their own it speaks volumes! Not many people want to or are willing to do that. To twist it and say ” well you chose to be a parents so suck it up!” is unreasonable and hurtful. Do you know how many kids wish to God they had good parents? Look at the newspapers; all of the child YOU and I read about who have been killed by their own “flesh & blood”. There are many kids in foster care whose only desire to to have a “family”.

Sorry Andra, but you can’t twist my words to suit you.

I called my aparents mom and dad because they were the only parents I ever knew, out of love and respect. Both are dead now, so it’s a moot point.
When and if I ever meet my nparents, I wil decide then what i will call them, based on how things develop.
All of this PC terminology is nothing but a distraction, and it doesn’t work.
Aparents are just that, bio-natural-birth-first parents refer to the same thing, Why make a big deal about a simple label? We all know what it means. Use what works for you and give others the same consideration. Calling them by a different term does not negate what happened, or even sanitize it.
Just another arguing point from aparents that really doesn’t change the TRUTH.

As adoptive parents, there is an exra responsibility that bio families do not have, and that is, the child has another set of parents that they as a child may try (out of love, respect or sometimes fear of another rejection of their aparents) to repress or not. The child adoptee is (more often than not) indoctrinated to ignore those urges and desires, because they are constantly reminded of how wonderful aparents are because they “wanted” or “loved” you more than the nparents did. Again implying the nparents didn’t love them.

“it speaks volumes”
What do you want? a nobel prize?I heard those “volumes” throughout that 10 years and beyond about how WONDERFUL my aparents were as foster parents. I even have a laminated copy of the newspaper article about my mom being the recipient of “woman of the year” by the local jaycees, for her work in foster care, and her picture in the paper. Her and a foster baby, my sister and I were not in the picture, and in the brief mention of me, my name was misspelled. Doesn’t mean much today, but “it speaks volumes” to a young teen that already feels second best. We loved those babies every bit as much as our aparents did, and felt huge loss every time one left us. There was never a shortage of babies that needed homes. There still isn’t.

Being a parent isn’t about great honors or recognition, it’s about loving a child, in adoption it’s also about taking on that extra something that natural bio families do not, because that “something extra” is not a factor at all.

” Do you know how many kids wish to God they had good parents?”
Can you read? Over 10 years of growing up we had 49 babies and 3 older children in our home. My aunt did the same (not sure of her count, I didn’t feel the need to keep score, but they did), but took it further and adopted 3 of them (after her 6 were grown up). I’ve heard all about those children that want a family for the past 42 years. I’ve heard every reason for relinquishment for 42 years. I’ve heard how (much more) wonderful adoptive parents were FOR 42 YEARS.
You’re not telling me anything new.

I didn’t say “suck it up” you did. You and your arguments use those ugly terms in an attempt to glorify your position and dismiss mine.
I said there is an EXTRA responsibility in adoption that bio families do not experience, and that needs to be examined very closely BEFORE adopting.
FOR THE SAKE OF THE CHILD!
Again, no matter if adopted or bio, the child ALWAYS comes first.

You say “there is no shame in it”. Tell that to the child shamed by his/her peers in school,church, extended family, and later in adult life when asked for medical history or needs security clearance for his/her job.
We’re told we’re “special”, that makes us different. We’re expected to assimilate into a foreign (to us) atmosphere. We’re TOLD what we should feel about the whole thing.

And then you drag infanticide, and offspring killers into the mix.
Leave the “shock value” arguments at the door. They don’t hold up.
I won’t dignify that train of though any more than I have.

You say I should be happy that I was told. I don’t feel happy about being told as a VERY young impressionable child that the woman that bore me gave me away, I never did and it caused much turmoil in my life, whether or not I vocalised it or acted out is irrelevant. I was told by those who “loved me more than anything” that I was damaged goods and their love would FIX me. And you try to throw the “grateful” argument at me.
Adoptees are the only ones that really have to “suck it up”, we never had a choice, adoptive parents are the only ones in the triad that had completely free choice, birth parents had a very difficult choice, the child had none at all.

Your arguments are just that, everything I’ve read here from you is focused on the parents. The aparents are wonderful and the bparents are “less than”.
You only acknowledge the negative of natural mothers (and fathers) while extolling the virtues of those selfless souls that took us on.

Parent’s responsibility is simply to love and care for their children. I agree wholeheartedly. But in cases of adoption there is an exta dimension that cannot be ignored, and many do. THAT I see as a failure to the child (partial albeit, but failure to acknowledge and explore truth just the same). Ive been told by everyone from aparents to people on the street that the ones who raised me are my “real” parents. I don’t see it that way, and of adoptees (and I’ve known a lot of them, even before I decided to search) only a small fraction have told me they feel differently. I’ve never personaly met an adoptee that didn’t wonder at a deep level who their natural parents were, no matter how well adjusted they may be.

You are entitled to your opinion on “flesh and blood” but you do not have the right to dispute or disparage mine. It is REAL based on life experience, not on any study or clinical survey.

In the OP, the prospective father would not take the title of “Dad” only in the case where the natural or “real” father was regularly present in the childs life, and only for that reason. In any other situation, he EXPECTED to be treated and addressed as father.

And finaly:
“Let’s be honest, if you ( bparent) want to be a constant figure in the child’s life and be of importance-raise them! An adopted child needs to know that the people raising them aren’t going anywhere.”

Where did I say I was a parent, bio or otherwise?
I’m not nor will I ever be a parent. My aparents failed to teach me to be an adult, much less a parent. Oh, I’ve changed more diapers and fed more hungry babies than any parent I’m likely to ever meet, but that’s not the meaning of parenting. I would NEVER put another child through what I’ve been through inside. THAT is my choice. A very educated choice.

Dan

“When a person decides to raise another person’s child as their own it speaks volumes! Not many people want to or are willing to do that.”

This reminds me of the “adoption is NOT a second choice” argument.

Andra, I have to ask: do you know if your b-parents wanted to raise you, or did they hurt you physically/emotionally? Or is it just a matter of “She gave me up, too bad for her, my REAL mom raised me instead”?

I’m not going to argue with you if it’s the last point… just wondering if there’s any particular reason other than the whole “well if my b-mom wanted to be ‘mom’, she shoulda raised me” scenario…

“Andra, I have to ask: do you know if your b-parents wanted to raise you, or did they hurt you physically/emotionally? Or is it just a matter of “She gave me up, too bad for her, my REAL mom raised me instead”?”

Mei:

Not a problem. My bparents were young teens when they had me. They were too young to take care of themselves and a child. I have no anger towards them because they were doing the best that they could at that time. I have welcomed them into my life after meeting them and getting to know them ( my kids call them grandma & grandpa). I can’t call them my parents because they didn’t raise me , and titles of mom & dad belong to my aparents-they are the only parents I’ve known.

Ah, I see. Thanks for explaining that.

It’s all a matter of personal preference then, isn’t it.

Dan:

It sounds like you have a lot of anger towards your adoption experience and you project it towards aparents/adoption. I have never said or implied aparents are “great” and the bparents are “less than”. I said aparents signed-up to be parents and raise a child. Not keep the “spirit” of the bparents alive because they’re not rising them. You make it sound like the kid’s on loan and the aparents “owe” it to the bparents to remind the child about them.

“I didn’t say “suck it up” you did. You and your arguments use those ugly terms in an attempt to glorify your position and dismiss mine.
I said there is an EXTRA responsibility in adoption that bio families do not experience, and that needs to be examined very closely BEFORE adopting. FOR THE SAKE OF THE CHILD!Again, no matter if adopted or bio, the child ALWAYS comes first.”

My point exactly the child comes first and as a parent, the only responsibility they have is to the child. That means creating a safe and nurturing environment for the child to feel safe and loved. NOT pushing aside the love and responsibility of raising a child and focusing on the spirit of the “bparents” because they couldn’t/ didn’t want to raise them. Too many time I’ve read threads where aparents were told (or it was implied) to”suck it up and deal” because they “chose” to adopt. You said yourself.

Again, I’m sorry for your anger but to blame the aparents and adoption instead of your bparents isn’t the answer.

I wish you best in your journey,

A fellow adoptee

“Ah, I see. Thanks for explaining that.

It’s all a matter of personal preference then, isn’t it.”

Yes, it’s a personal preference, I don’t have the parent/child relationship ( with my bparents) that I have with my aparents. There’s no childhood/young adult history or memories with them. We have a relationship that is very nice, but it’s not the same relationship that I have with my aparents ( mom & dad).

“It sounds like you have a lot of anger towards your adoption experience and you project it towards aparents/adoption.”

Wow, and to think I just posted about this very familiar line:

“You’re just being critical because you had a bad experience and/or are bitter about your adoption.”

To be fair, though, I think we are talking about different categories: Andra is referring to domestic adoption, whereas I’m almost always referencing international adoption where the adoption experiences are compounded by a different culture and language.

Question for you, Andra, now that I know a bit about your background:

If your b-parents were physically not capable of raising you (money, education, w/e) and you found out that they wanted to raise but weren’t permitted to do so – let’s say your a-parents were aware of this – would you have blamed your b-parents for getting pregnant irresponsibly or still saluted your a-parents for doing something your b-parents were incapable of doing?

I understand that to you, your only real parents are your mom and dad.

Would you have preferred that your a-parents helped your b-parents (this is assuming your b-parents got pregnant irresponsibly), or would you have been satisfied that you had been adopted regardless of whether or not your b-parents had wanted to raise you?

Getting pregnant at such a young age seems to be a method that people can demean others for and say things such as “Well then, don’t open your legs and take responsibility!”, which is usually where the a-parents’ roles are brought in – to show *they* took the responsibility instead.

In other words, would it make any difference if it had been a possibility at some point for your b-parents to get assistance in raising you IF they had wanted to do so? Probably not, since you were adopted and you are content with it, but I’m just curious.

Or have they themselves told you they didn’t want the responsibility of raising a child? Have you thought about contacting them?

“If your b-parents were physically not capable of raising you (money, education, w/e) and you found out that they wanted to raise but weren’t permitted to do so – let’s say your a-parents were aware of this – would you have blamed your b-parents for getting pregnant irresponsibly or still saluted your a-parents for doing something your b-parents were incapable of doing? I understand that to you, your only real parents are your mom and dad. Would you have preferred that your a-parents helped your b-parents (this is assuming your b-parents got pregnant irresponsibly), or would you have been satisfied that you had been adopted regardless of whether or not your b-parents had wanted to raise you?”

Mei:

Like I said before my parents were very young when they had me. They couldn’t take care of themselves much less a child ( and I have NO anger towards them because they did the best that they could). And to be honest, I wouldn’t have had the opportunities that I have if I weren’t adopted. I also beleive it’s NOT the aparents responsibility to help the bparents raise a child( that responsibility lays on the bparent’s parents to assist them).

“Or have they themselves told you they didn’t want the responsibility of raising a child? Have you thought about contacting them?”

I don’t think you’ve read my post- I have been in reunion with my bparents for five years now ( my kids call them grandma & grandpa)

“I also beleive it’s NOT the aparents responsibility to help the bparents raise a child( that responsibility lays on the bparent’s parents to assist them).”

I meant temporary support.

As to your last line, I guess I missed that.

“I meant temporary support.”

Again I can’t agree with that, that belongs to the bparen’t parents. If they want to provide temporary support it’s up to them, but it’s not the aparents responsibility to provide temporary support. Also, several times I’ve mention my relationship with my bparents.

“It sounds like you have a lot of anger towards your adoption experience and you project it towards aparents/adoption.”

Andra, if this has been someone’s experience how are they projecting it? I’m confused by your point there.

When I read Dan’s words I saw him engaging in a complex acknowledgement of his experience. Love, anger, grief. His decision was to not search for his birthmother until his adoptive mother died. It may be that he has lost the chance to meet her. I hope not.

I validate the right for you to feel however you do about your experience. But Dan and I both shared aspects of our experiences and you told us what we should feel and think about them. I don’t think anyone can tell us what to feel and think about our experiences. It’s an adult’s job to explore their experience fully and honestly.

Someone recently pointed out to me that categorizing emotions as positive and negative is false. They are feelings. They just are. What you CHOOSE to do with them is a different story. You can feel happy and choose to do something really stupid. That doesn’t make happiness a negative emotion. It’s just an emotion.

I think that when a parent doesn’t help a child deal with their emotions and a life experience, either because they are unwilling or don’t have the resources to do so, that person will have anger. I think this anger can be healthy; it can be an indicator: “Hey human being, there’s something you need to work on here!” In this way I see anger as a messenger that can be honored. It’s there for a reason. When we ignore or feel ashamed about our feelings (and try to repress them), we can miss some very important messages.

The poet Rumi has a wonderful poem about emotions which begins,”This being human is a guest house/Every morning a new arrival.” He goes on to say:

“Welcome and entertain them all!
Even if they are a crowd of sorrows,
who violently sweep your house
empty of its furniture,
still treat each guest honorably…
because each has been sent
as a guide from beyond.”

http://elise.com/quotes/a/rumi_guest_house.php

“When I read Dan’s words I saw him engaging in a complex acknowledgement of his experience. Love, anger, grief. His decision was to not search for his birthmother until his adoptive mother died. It may be that he has lost the chance to meet her. I hope not.”

Livia:

Dan sounds like he’s angry at the world. He’s searching for his bioparents and hasn’t met them yet ( from what I understand). He also said he was in foster care so I can understand were the anger is coming from but to direct it towards aparents/adoption is wrong, IMHO

“I validate the right for you to feel however you do about your experience. But Dan and I both shared aspects of our experiences and you told us what we should feel and think about them. I don’t think anyone can tell us what to feel and think about our experiences. It’s an adult’s job to explore their experience fully and honestly.”

I have said nothing of the sort. I explained why “I” don’t agree it’s the aparents “responsibility” to “keep” the spirit” of the bparents alive. IMHO, the only thing they “owe” the child and bparents is the acknowledgement the child is adopted and to love, nurture and raise the child. To say an aparent who isn’t constantly talking about the bparents because they want to erase them, is insane! To me it seems you’re agreeing the kid’s on “loan” and the bparents are the “real” parents so the aparents “owe” it to them to keep thier “presence” alive. I can’t agree with that.

To be an “excellent” parent means focusing on the child-making sure they are in a safe and loving environment where they “feel” the love the parents have for them. To expect the aparents to “cast” that aside and instead focus on the “spirit” of the bparents because they aren’t raising the child is selfish. The adopted child needs to know they are loved and wanted by the parents raising them.

“I think that when a parent doesn’t help a child deal with their emotions and a life experience, either because they are unwilling or don’t have the resources to do so, that person will have anger. I think this anger can be healthy; it can be an indicator: “Hey human being, there’s something you need to work on here!” In this way I see anger as a messenger that can be honored. It’s there for a reason. When we ignore or feel ashamed about our feelings (and try to repress them), we can miss some very important messages.”

I agree, but you can’t blame the aparents because they were doing the best that they could at that time.

“Dan sounds like he’s angry at the world.”

Someone may be angry but that doesn’t invalidate what they’re saying, or make it wrong.

“He also said he was in foster care so I can understand were the anger is coming from but to direct it towards aparents/adoption is wrong, IMHO”

I think we’re just seeing what he’s saying differently. I saw him acknowledge a lot of love for his adoptive mother. I saw him point out some things in his adoptive experience that could have been better.

“they were doing the best that they could at that time.”

I think we agree on this. Both Dan and I said we’d wished our mothers had the tools to do it differently.

“I” don’t agree it’s the aparents “responsibility” to “keep” the spirit” of the bparents alive.”

The spirit of birthparents is already alive in an adopted person. It’s just a matter of providing an emotionally safe environment for a child to express a range of feelings, thoughts, questions, and feel like they can intergrate that as a part of their history.

“To me it seems you’re agreeing the kid’s on “loan”

Not at all. I definitely do not think adoption is a loan. We agree on that.

“and the bparents are the “real” parents”

I think “real” is very complex term, and I’ve often seen it used to invalidate adoptees exploring how they feel about their birthparents and adoptive parents, too. I’ve had people comment that my aparents are my real parents, I’ve had people comment that my bparents are my real parents. Both statments are upsetting, because that is for me to explore, not for someone from the outside to decide for me. I think we should let adoptees explore what real means to them, or if they even want to use that term at all.

Livia:

Although I admire your wisdom, I think Dan was lashing out at the wrong person and people. Each adoptee has a different experience that is valid. I agree the aparents should provide an emotionally safe environment so the child can explore his/her feelings ( my parents did). But to fault the aparents for not “keeping the spirit of the bparents alive”, when they are doing the BEST that they can, is unfair and unreasonable( even if they had the tools to do so).

Remember they signed up to be parents first, and their priority is to provide a safe, loving and nurturing environment for the child/nuclear family, while being open and acknowledging the child is adopted and may/will have adoption related questions or/and issues. But to say them must go above and beyond the best that they can do ( and if they can’t, means they are erasing the spirit of the bparents) isn’t fair.

Andra

“But to say they must go above and beyond the best that they can do ( and if they can’t, means they are erasing the spirit of the bparents) isn’t fair.”

Livia:

I what I wanted to add, but I ran out of time to edit, was I wasn’t directing this quote towards you but towards the OP who expressed this.

OK, I’m back. Got my non ID info yesterday and wasn’t going to spoil it with this bickering.

To the home brewed psychologists that take it upon themselves to diagnose my problems, you are wrong.
I don’t hate the world, don’t hate my aparents and don’t hate you.

I used my experience in adoption and foster care arenas to expess knowledge in the areas discussed.
I was in foster care for about 8 weeks before placement, so that wouldn’t qualify as first hand experience. I WAS, in conjunction with my parents and asis, a foster care provider, from age 5 to 15. My aunt (adad’s sis) also got into being a foster care provider around the same time (I think it was just after us, but I was only 5)

My original point was that the childs needs were, and in many cases still are, not being met for various reasons. The primary reason is assumtion.

In andra’s comment “Your mother was doing the best that she could based on your reaction; that’s her job as a parent to protect you. You can’t fault her for not asking the question again.”,
about Livia’s experience
“I’ll give you a personal example here. (I’m sharing it in the hopes that it can add to our discussion.) My mother one day told me that I had a birthsister and that if I wanted to, she would take me to see her. Now maybe your response would have been, “Let’s go!” Mine was shock, fear, and numbness. I said, “”No,” when what I actually meant was, “Oh my God, I’m so afraid right now. I really want to see her, but I’m so afraid.” My mother said she’d never bring up the topic again. I couldn’t even speak at that moment, so I couldn’t tell her anything different. And the experience was so intense for me that I completely blocked out that she’d told me I had a sister. But if my mother had brought up the subject again, let’s say in a week or so, and talked it through with me, I know that I would have been able to say, “Yes, please take me to meet her.” My mother really didn’t know better and she was doing the best she could. I so wish she’d had the tools to do things differently in that case.”…

I contend that Livia’s need was not being met. Her mom got a free pass when she said she didn’t want to know. A childs innocent fear was construed as a concious decision by an adult.
Today we know more because more of us are speaking out, making our experiences known, not stifled by editing in some published report.
We have the opportunity to NOT take the childs needs for granted.

We forget about those needs as we grow up, our current needs are more important in our life as adults, so the child memories are not in the forefront. It’s not a bad thing, it just is. Life set’s it’s own priorities, we try to alter those priorities and people are effected.

I’m not here to place blame on either mother, I’m here trying to ensure that it doesn’t continue. Silence was golden then, it was uncomfortable and we were coming into the “comfort lifestyle” full tilt in the 60s.
Ignorance cannot be used today as an excuse “She did the best she could at the time”
We know better, and communication reaches everyone today.
Unwed birth is no big deal today, everyone knows that.

You think that “flesh and blood” is over rated.
I just got my non identifying information yesterday. It explained a lot about who I AM.
I am my father. We have the same interests, we’re physicaly alike, we’ve followed eerily similar career paths.
I am nothing like my aparents, from looks to build to career choice, my ancestry and national heritage.
But they raised me with good values, and I’m proud of that aspect of them, and proud to represent what I’ve learned from them.
One of them is TRUTH reigns supreme. Hiding TRUTH ony causes problems.
At my age, I don’t need nor want a” mom”, but I do have a need to connect with my REAL heritage.
I love the woman that raised me, she is MOM to me.

I’m not angry at my bmom. I found that she had spent most of her life growing up in the system, moving every 1-2 years. I understand her not wanting to raise a child that could end up with the same fate. She was never taught to raise a child. I was taught how to raise a child to toddler age.
Thats the reason I never had kids nor ever wanted to.

I love children, my experience affected my choice to not have children.

It all comes down to responsibility to the child, not which mother owes the other for raising the child.
If you drop a bombshell on a child like “you have a sister, would you like to meet her”…. ASK HER AGAIN NEXT WEEK!!! She want’s to know, but a) is afraid you’ll feel rejected just like she already does, and b) needs time to process such a life altering question.

TAKE RESPONSIBILITY to know these things before deciding to adopt.
DO NOT ASSUME when it comes to a childs needs.
Adults are rarely correct in those assumptions.
We’re too educated to admit it though.

Dan (Anthony Dean)

Dan, Congratulations on getting the non ID info! I’m very happy for you.

‘I am my father. We have the same interests, we’re physicaly alike, we’ve followed eerily similar career paths.
I am nothing like my aparents, from looks to build to career choice, my ancestry and national heritage.
But they raised me with good values, and I’m proud of that aspect of them, and proud to represent what I’ve learned from them.
One of them is TRUTH reigns supreme. Hiding TRUTH only causes problems.
At my age, I don’t need nor want a” mom”, but I do have a need to connect with my REAL heritage.”

Dan:
When you speak of the “Truth” do you mean your amom withheld information from you? Has it ever occurred to you that maybe the info she had about your bparents was of concern to her and HOW YOU would process it? Or do you feel despite the fact your aparents raised you ( and did the “job” your bparents were suppose to do) their life/heritage isn’t your part of your life because it isn’t the “TRUTH”.?

I have a friend who adopted a baby boy. The child is his bmom’s second ( or third child, and, no, it’s not a foster care adoption). Orginally the bmom wanted an open adoption and my friend wasn’t “comfortable” with it. She wasn’t comfortable because of the fact that the bmom “kept” her first born and “gave away” her second child. How does one explain to the child: “your bmom loved you so much she placed you with us, but “kept” the others, while “keeping the spirit of the bparents alive”. In my opinion, my friend was right to suggest a semi-open adoption. She was looking out for the child’s best interest, because how would anyone feel after knowing your bmom was parenting another child already, and place you? They keep in contact by email and when the child is an older teen, he will meet his bfamily, if he wants to( of course he knows he’s adopted and has a bsibling).

[How does one explain to the child: “your bmom loved you so much she placed you with us, but “kept” the others, while “keeping the spirit of the bparents alive”.]

Well, frankly, there is no nice way to sugar-coat that truth.

“Well, frankly, there is no nice way to sugar-coat that truth.”

Mei Ling:

Your’e right there no way to sugar coat it! According to the Evan Douglason agency it’s very common for women placing a child who is the second, third or fouth born ( in America). And maybe ( if this is the case), Dan’s/Livia’s amothers knew this and tried their best to shield them from it. Like I said, who want’s to know their bmom placed/gave them away but kept the other children before them?

What about a situation where a mother and father divorce. They have a one year old daughter. Let’s say the father remarries. He then has a baby with his new wife. He then moves from the state where his first daughter lives with her mother, but still wants to be a part of her life. The mother of that daughter then remarries.

This is a complicated situation. Yet I think most stepfamilies do deal with it openly and honestly.

[How does one explain to the child: “your bmom loved you so much she placed you with us, but “kept” the others”

I think instead of going the route of “loved you so much,” you explain in age appropriate terms what exactly led to the bmom’s decision. (Financial issues for instance.)

“Like I said, who want’s to know their bmom placed/gave them away but kept the other children before them?”

Sometimes it just happens and there is no way to protect the child.

This is why secrets should never be kept for “protection”… people can only lie for so long before the facade begins to crack. Obviously I realize in case of drug-addicts and physically harmful mothers, it’s different and I would never disagree that children need to be protected for those truths.

But having a bio-sibling who was kept and then not being told while the adopted child is growing is a lie by omission.

I have a sister who was kept because of my adoption. I did not learn this until after I graduated high school. If I had been told while I was growing up that I had a kept sister, it would have hurt me. Since I was told only after starting contact with them, it hurt me anyway.

My mother had a child after me. It hurts. It will always hurt. It would have hurt if I had found out as a young child, but I didn’t know, so it ended up hurting me anyway as an adult.

There is no escape from it.

“What about a situation where a mother and father divorce. They have a one year old daughter. Let’s say the father remarries. He then has a baby with his new wife. He then moves from the state where his first daughter lives with her mother, but still wants to be a part of her life. The mother of that daughter then remarries. This is a complicated situation. Yet I think most stepfamilies do deal with it openly and honestly. ”

Actually it’s not complicated because the father hasn’t requlished his rights as a father. Meaning he hasn’t transferred is rights and responsibility’s of raising the child to other man(parent).

“I think instead of going the route of “loved you so much,” you explain in age appropriate terms what exactly led to the bmom’s decision. (Financial issues for instance.)”

So the child wasn’t “worth” the effort because the bmom didn’t want the “extra burden of another mouth to feed”. It’s not easy at all to explain to a child that the bmom kept her first, second or third born but placed the them. There’s no justification; she can take care of her other kids but not the other? You can give your child away like that, like a litter of kittens? And the aparents are expected to kept her spirit alive? Maybe the aparents are trying to shield the child from being hurt ( I know I would if I were a aparent). As long as the child knows they’re adopted ( and the parents are open to dicussing adoption and the child’s feelings)…..fine but to go above and beyond that sometimes isn’t in the child’s best interest.

“There’s no justification; she can take care of her other kids but not the other? You can give your child away like that, like a litter of kittens? And the aparents are expected to kept her spirit alive?”

You’re talking about different semantics here.

The first one is about the child’s viewpoint. The second one is the a-parent’s viewpoint. They are not necessarily mutually exclusive, even if the a-parent’s knowledge is the same as the child’s.

“You’re talking about different semantics here.

The first one is about the child’s viewpoint. The second one is the a-parent’s viewpoint. They are not necessarily mutually exclusive, even if the a-parent’s knowledge is the same as the child’s.”

Mei Ling:

That is true, but how would you feel knowing your bmom placed you for adoption but “kept” her first or second child, especially in an open adoption? Let’s be honest, as you got older you would connect the dots and see it for what it is. The bmom didn’t want the burden of another mouth to feed”. I don’t think that would be a nice feeling. In fact, it would feel like rejection.

Andra – my bmom DID keep a child after me. She relinquished her rights, but it wasn’t her fault due to the circumstances. Then, because she lost ME, she had another one. Yes, it feels like rejection, very much so.

If the bmom gives up Child 1 and then has Child 2 a few years later, Child 1 wasn’t the “another mouth to feed.” Child 1 WAS the one given up.

Mother: I gave up the child. I had no choice.
Society: Oh, so NOW you want to parent while the hard work is being done?! Too bad. You didn’t step up at the time, so this is your own fault. I don’t care how bad your situation was, you did NOT step up to raise your child. You made your bed, now lie in it.
Mother: But it wasn’t my fault. I was too young, I didn’t have any support.
Society: Well then, YOU should have thought about that first. You have no one to blame but yourself. You just wanted to “out” your responsibilities as a parent.

Is it just me, or does this sound ridiculously judgmental?

Maybe the b-mom wanted to parent and COULD HAVE if she had been given the right resources. Okay, there are some people who shouldn’t be parents – the ones who truly don’t care, the ones who come from harmful environments. But why pass judgement and then later say “Well you just wanted to skirt all responsibility”?

It sounds so heartless to “frame” it that way. Why? Because very few people get pregnant for the sole purpose of handing off their infant, and then “coming back” into the child’s life JUST to “skirt all responsibility.”

Sorry if I’m giving the benefit of the doubt. But I believe there is far more compassion to humanity than those who would think that mothers just give up their child only to claim they did it to “skirt responsibility” so they can pick up their parenting again.

Logic dictates that based on the consent of the papers, the court wouldn’t favor their behalf anyway.

Mei

You’re talking about a woman whose had a child after placing, most likely she’s in a much better place to parent. Also, I don’t understand how/why you skip around subjects? I was talking about a child whose bmom placed them but kept her older children.

“Dan:
When you speak of the “Truth” do you mean your amom withheld information from you? Has it ever occurred to you that maybe the info she had about your bparents was of concern to her and HOW YOU would process it? Or do you feel despite the fact your aparents raised you ( and did the “job” your bparents were suppose to do) their life/heritage isn’t your part of your life because it isn’t the “TRUTH”.?”

Actualy yes. My mother withheld the truth from me, to the day she died.
She taught me to tell the truth, but lied to me by omission my whole life.
She knew my birthname, never told me, but told my sister when she named her son the same as me, Anthony Dean. I just found this out 2 days ago when I told my sister my birth name. She already knew.
I’m sure they didn’t read us the complete non ID summary as provided by the agency when I was 4, and it was never brought up again. They gave us as much as they ASSUMED we needed to shut us up about it. Just like Livia’s mom asked her a heavy question, and dismissed it, assumed that she really didn’t want to know when she was actualy just afraid until it sunk in.

That assumption continued into my adult life. I don’t expect anyone to tell a 4 or even 10 year old child that their father was a murderer. But if she knew that information, she failed to allow me to process it as an adult, she failed to respect me as her adult son. I was 41 when she died, there was plenty of time.

I’m not part of their heritage. The only contact I have with their heritage is the time we were on this earth together. I carry life lessons and memories of relationships, and a few current relationships, life wasn’t horrible just incomplete and disconnected from what I saw in bio families. They are much closer than mere aquaintaces, but not a bond to my ancestors.

I don’t even know details of their childhood, just a very few stories.
Mom’s father was a preacher and a farmer, her mother was a typical Mennonite woman.
Mom got real sick, dad was in the army, mom didn’t like champaigne the only time she tried it, dad never smoked or drank in his life. That’s about it. I never knew the extent of my adads education until after he died, because he never used it, and never talked about it. Again an assumtion that family folklore wasn’t of interest to ones own son or daughter. What heritage am I to carry on? A family tree with not one drop of my bood in it? Not one family story to pass on?
They convinced us that we were THEIR children, and there were to be no more questions.
I love them, but I don’t feel part of them at a deep level that you can’t anylize, it either is or it isn’t. And yes, I resent being deemed not adult enough to hear the truth as an adult. She failed on that account in a big way, for 23 years of my adulthood, over half of my life. That’s just legal adulthood, not “when I was mature enough to handle the truth that I have now”, the truth which is fairly run of the mill and not of any traumatic or violent value at all. Nothing that a 15-16 year old can’t handle and understand.

If we don’t learn from past mistakes, we are lost.
The only reason ANONE lies about anything is fear of losing something or not getting what you want.
If you must lie to keep something as precious as a son/daughter, you don’t deserve to be a parent. I’m sorry that my mother lied.

“That assumption continued into my adult life. I don’t expect anyone to tell a 4 or even 10 year old child that their father was a murderer. But if she knew that information, she failed to allow me to process it as an adult, she failed to respect me as her adult son. I was 41 when she died, there was plenty of time”

Dan:

You’re right your amom was wrong from withholding important information from you. I do believe when the child is an older mature teen the grittiness of their birth story should be told ( just like my friend is doing her son knows he’s adopted, and has an older bsibling, but visits wont begin until he’s older and “gets it”) . Your mother was doing he best that she could AT THAT TIME. You and I are older adoptees and back then it was encouraged to withhold information and adoption. I didn’t know your amom but maybe she wasn’t lying to “keep” you away from your bfamily. And I do agree if we don’t learn from the past, we are lost.

Several years after my “reunion” I was in my grandparents (by birth) house and noticed a framed letter hanging in their family room. I took the time to read it and it “hit me” so hard. It was a prayer written by a great-aunt who lived in another state. They are a Jewish family and the prayer was beautifully written. It was a “blessing” to their family and included ALL the grandchildren “everywhere.” For the 1st time I realized the prayer encompassed me. I was their 10th grandchild and at my grandparents 50th wedding anniversary celebration they had a grandchild portrait made, which included me. This was at the very beginning of my reunion and I didn’t understand the feelings or depth at the time. I was so numb and confused.
I’m so thankful for years of reunion which has helped me realize how truly grounded I am in my family of origin.

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